Beginning
Age: 17
Interests: Minecraft, D&D, VtM, Smash Bros., Halo 4, Civilization 5, EarthBound
Main Activities on Opti: Building
Memories: Getting Crafter on Classic, general shenanigans of Timothythe3rd, Nuzzy being da bess, griefing swastikas and penises, afk boxes, building arenas for the Spleef world/tournament, Unholy_Gibbon and I clearing out a really old guest world to build in (to the dismay of Nick), building warp points for worlds on smp, the events in mumble leading to Alpha's ban, building the current market, shortly being admin on Creative.
Other: Your_Mine, let me know when that Spleef tournament starts.

Now
Age: 22
Interests: Rocket League, Smash Bros., Pokemon Go, Death Note, My Chemical Romance, traveling
Other: Been working at Walmart as overnight stocker. Tried doing Smash Bros. tournaments (got 1st at a small Gamestop one, but lost terribly at Evo 2016 in Las Vegas). Pokemon Go was pretty much my entire summer this year. Got into the emo fashion as of late. Also, Rocket League is great.

Opticraft didn't have life changing things for me other than the great memories with the friends I've met here. I just only wish it didn't die (otherwise I'd probably still be playing and building).

Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 02:46:39 am

Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 12:53:38 am

Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:05:03 am

Quote from: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm

I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?

The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).

And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).

Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy

What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).

Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.

I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.

Quote from: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm

I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?

Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 24, 2016, 04:09:10 pm

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:53:07 pm

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 03:36:55 pm

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:05:46 pm

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:44:30 pm

Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?

They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter.

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.

Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.

If players wanted, they could create a currency in game by using gold or something but having an overall currency for the server is something we want to get rid of. It turns the survival server into an economy server where its all about getting money.

If this is what's seriously being considered then I am opposed to this particular proposal concerning the economy.

Care to elaborate? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that we wanted to do away with the entire current economy.

Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.

Perhaps, if the idea of a server wipe isn't completely out of the question, a compromise is in order? For example, I liked the idea somebody brought up to have applications be open to have builds transferred over to the new worlds.

Also, I would like to say something about the economy topic. I don't really like the idea of there being no money at all and no market at all (I'm in favor of a change to the market to allow players to sell things). What I was thinking was there would be a user based market/economy where people exchange money for items they want that other people are selling, and players can open stands at the market to sell things as opposed to the server selling things (this of course wouldn't mean that nobody could trade items for items) I think my vision for a new economy is more in line with Ozzy's; completely user based, which allows the economy to be a free market. Like said previously by him,  he could build a giant melon farm if he wanted to, but if people don't want melons then it won't benefit him much. People would gain money based on things people want rather than simply a sell sign.

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

I like the market idea along with the idea of player shops at the market too.


I would also like to add a thought to the whole wipe thing. I already know it's off the table now, but I wonder how this would work in the eyes of the people who were against a world wipe but for a change to the economy.

I'm just curious as to what difference would that really make if the goal is to make survival more survival based, but wealthy players keep their money from the old system, and the worlds, with all their farms and all, are retained from the old system. (unless I'm misunderstanding something about all this). Ya the economy would be different, but so? If everything else is unchanged then we have older players with an advantage over newer ones (at least in terms of survivability) due to them profiting under the old system.

Not that I necessarily think the wealthy should have their money taken away, but I think and all or nothing approach would make more sense than having one or the other (between world wipe and economy revamp). At least to me it'd make more sense to either have a complete fresh start, or keep going the way it is. Buy idk, perhaps, again, I'm misunderstanding something.