Congrats on the upgrade! And thanks for keeping the legacy server around!

Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:51:26 pm

I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?

Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 07:45:56 pm

Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy

What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).

I agree with everything Hedgehog's suggested about the money supply and avoiding a spamfest of chests.  But again, there looks to be some GUI-based economy plugins out there.

I think giving money as a voting reward would be a less disruptive reward than diamonds, and would be a good way to get money into the system.  But, as Hedgehog mentioned, could result in ever increasing inflation.  We could also make the money supply dependent on certain resources that have to be mined (i.e. nothing that could ever be farmed), like gold or iron ore.  Players could trade those in for money at a fixed rate.  I dunno, just a thought. 

Quote from: HarryTheGuerilla on March 25, 2016, 04:09:37 pm

. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.

You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything.  It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.

Only 40% voted for 'yes'.  And several of those after the world wipe was taken off the table.  Several more of those 'yes' votes were before they understood what exactly you were proposing for the economy. 

If you want a useful poll you should have everyone vote on each proposal individually since "I support some of them" is a bit hard to get usable information out of.  Also each proposal should be explained (perhaps alternates offered) otherwise people who think we should have a player-run economy as I described would vote for your "addition of player trading system" option which is very different than what they'd want.

But yes, I am thankful for this discussion and give you guys total credit for starting it off and hashing it out with all the players here.

Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the development, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My development would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

I couldn't agree more! 

I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds.  It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly.  I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players.  If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.

I would like to see a market economy, I chose this server not just because of who played on it but because it offered the best of both worlds, survival and economy combined to leave the choice up to the individual player as to how they want to play the game.  Yes some people went farm crazy and built massive redstone run farms, others ignore the market and play on survivor basis only, and some do a combination of those choices.  I believe that a points system will not change this except to limit the players ability to obtain blocks previously purchased at market.  The point is, this system allows players to decide how they want to play the game and that its their own choices that make the game fun or boring.

It looks like there is a lot of confusion over what is being proposed.  I was very confused as well.  I'll try to break it down:

Our Current Economic System
Our current economy contains three main elements.  I think folks who identify bad results are blaming the wrong element, and want to throw the whole thing out the window.  What our current economy has is:

Currency - A virtual currency (money) that players can exchange and accumulate.  They can use the money to buy protection stones, blocks (from other players, or the server-run market), pay each other for doing jobs/helping out, buy builds/property from others, and give away as gifts.  This currency could be called dollars, or money, or points, or any other term, but its purpose remains the same, to be a 'medium of exchange' and make it much easier to exchange goods and services.  Currency is merely a symbol that represents the value of an item. 

Player Trading - We are currently able to give, sell, buy or trade goods and services with each other.  We can set whatever price (even free!) we want.  This is (with an important caveat) set by supply and demand.  A few years ago it was very hard to get a dragon egg, they were very rare, so people were successfully selling them for $50,000 or more.  Now they are much more common so the price has dropped.  This is what happens when players are free to trade things with each other. 

Server-run Market - This, we are all familiar with, is a market owned and operated by the server itself.  Prices are fixed and never/rarely change.  The blocks sold at the market are conjured out of thin air.  They are not harvested within the game (like goods players trade).  Having an infinite supply of blocks (and an infinite demand for blocks) makes it very easy to build up lots of money and avoid harvesting things yourself.  This does, as some point out, remove some of the survival aspect of the server.  All the big issues we've had with the economy in the past (melons, iron, gold) have been driven by this infinite, artificial, server-run market that will buy something forever.  Removing melons from the market killed the incentive to make melon farms.  Removing iron & gold from the market has greatly reduced the incentive to make iron & gold farms, but not completely destroyed it, because those blocks are still useful for players.

Nick's Proposed Economic System

No Currency - Nick proposes eliminating currency.  We will no longer be able to buy blocks from each other.  We will no longer be able to pay someone $1,000 to help us dig out a hole.  We will no longer be able to buy a mansion or castle from another player.  We will no longer be able to sell access to an iron farm or enderman farm.  He doesn't just want to create a "points system" in place of a "money system".  Points will be separate.  He wants to get rid of currency altogether.

Player Trading - Nick intends to keep player trading, but without currency it will become extremely difficult.  So difficult, in my view, that no one will do it.  We will be left with nothing but primitive barter.  We can give our blocks for someone else's blocks directly.  If I have stone and you have iron, I better hope you want stone in exchange or we won't be interested in trading.   It will be a very cumbersome, inefficient & time-consuming way of trading. 

No Server-run Market - This will be gone (and good riddance).  But Nick did mention being able to buy protection & rare items with "points".  That's fine, since we would need some way to get those items.  It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.

A Player-Run Proposed Economic System
This is what I (and many others here) would like to see. 

Currency - We'd keep a currency (call it points or money, I don't care).  I'm fine with zeroing out everyone's balances so we can start from scratch (or reducing everyone to a few thousand bucks).  As in any other economic model we'd have to tweak the money supply, but overall having currency is hugely helpful.  There are just too many things that can't be bartered for.

Player Trading - This would exist, largely as it does now, with players able to buy/sell things to other players at whatever price they agree to.  They can sell access to their farm, or sell their entire build, or trade blocks/items, etc.  It'd be a free market and the fairest, most open system we could have.  The only change is that there would be some new mechanism (sign shops, auction system, or GUI trading platform) that facilitates the buying & selling of blocks between players.

No Server-run Market - This would be gone.  No more infinite supply of blocks.  The only way to get something is to dig it out of the ground or grow it.  This would eliminate all the price distortion that exists because of the server-run market.  Items that people produce will be items that others need.  No more giant melon farms or other silly ways to exploit the system. 

I contend that the problem with our current economy isn't the fact that we have money.  The problem is that there is a server-run market that buys & sells infinite amounts of items.  Get rid of the server-run market, make it easier for players to buy & sell with each other, and we'll be set.

On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal?  So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a  point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?

I agree this is something we should discuss (I did my best to lay it all out above). What do people feel is the current problem with the economy (my simple answer is the server-run market)?  And how would you propose fixing it? 

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:44:30 pm

Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?

They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter.

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.

Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange. 

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:28:57 am

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 02:15:05 am

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:03:16 am

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.

that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.

there is no renaming anything to anything. If we get rid of the market, all the money is going with it. The points system would just be a tiny system to help players afford protection because there's no more money.

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?

Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:03:16 am

Quote from: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.

that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.