Melon and pumpkin discussion

[Nick3306]

You can host two SMP servers on a quad core server with 32gB with no issue. Just change the port on one of them so you don't get networking issues.

I assumed you meant a completely different box, my bad. But as I said, even if we only had 1 world we were still going to do this.

[Chief149]

Ok how about then having two markets. One in each world. Only in the member world will selling melons and pumpkins work. This should reduce the cpu usage by melon and pumpkin growth greatly.

[caitslove]

My bad, let me break down each piece of what you said.

Have you considered what non-moderator/operator/admin players think. You mean we're having fun with our melon farms. We have put a lot of time and resources into our farms. You say your minds can't be changed. So basically your saying that you don't care about your players. Ya know the players, the people who vote, the people who make the server popular. You all work hard on the server. How would like it if suddenly no one cared about what you thought and just canceled out about all your work. My farm is a manual farm. I put a lot of time in. I'm angry. If this post isn't seen, or is ignored; I will have lost all faith in opticraft: the server that was supposed to be the best in existence. Now we got the owners of the server not giving a crap about what the players think.
PS: Stop putting the vote now message up on, we're not gonna vote if you don't care about us

A vote would be useless. What player would turn down the opportunity to make an insane amount of money really fast? No one. That would be basically the same thing as putting up a vote on whether we should give out free money, everyone will vote yes because they want all the money.

In no way is it free money, because it takes money to make money. It required hours upon hours of hand farming to buy a protection stone. Then weeks to mine and farm enough iron to build anything useful. For a 41x41x3 farm, the iron and redstone required exceeds $24,000.  When you cant make money off SELLING iron and redstone because you need it, gold is in extremely short supply, and diamonds are unsellable, what other means do you have of making up that money? By no means is this ANYTHING remotely similar to "free money".

That being said, there are people out there with huge farms that agree with us on this decision(leganie is one of them) So you see, it is not that we dont care what you guys think, it is that most players would like an easy way to make money so they dont have to earn it.

That being said, there are a hundred OTHER people who regularly use this server who disagree. Congratz on landing perhaps 5 or 6 people who are NOT mods, operators, and trusteds trying to kiss up.

Trying to guilt us by saying we dont care about you is not going to work. If we dont care about you, why do we put all this effort into the server? Why do we spend hours of our time making sure you guys have a place to play? It is so easy for you to feel like you are entitled to something on this server but you dont realize the enormous amount of work it takes to keep this server up just so players like you can play. Do you have any idea the amount of money it costs to keep a server of this size running? Lets just say it is more than you think.

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

[Chief149]

I think only allowing melon and pumpkin sales only in the member world will work just fine, and reducing the price a little will help fix econ and cpu usage a fair bit.


Now caitslove is correct. Regardless of how "easy" it is to mine like Viper stated to earn money, Melons and Pumpkins are the prime source of income for most people, therefore I would definitely say that there would most likely be less votes, donations, and possible less players around because like caitslove stated:  we came here to enjoy the features of opticraft. When things start getting taken away then people are going to leave due to these features no longer being existent. Now of course players who like servers without markets and such may come and enjoy the server, but the majority of the players on this server like the market, and like the money economy system, and a lot of those players make money off of pumpkins and melons.

[Xeadin]

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

So, would you rather keep on loading the CPU so much until it runs out of room and lag the server out to the point where it's unplayable? Have it shut down unexpectedly because he can't pay for it anymore because of all the chunk updates that contain so much information?

You really need to think about what he has to go through just to keep this running. WE DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING-- You are using something that Optical has invested a LOT a money into. Continuing down this road of "building an automatic farm and afk'ing for a few hours and simply pressing a button to get all of the resources" is DAMAGING to the server. It's a great idea at first, but then more people catch on and soon the whole server is covered in auto farms sapping away CPU and causing a CRAPTON of lag, which nobody likes either. Guess whose fault it would have been if this were to continue? You think it's always the staff's fault?

[Nick3306]

My bad, let me break down each piece of what you said.

Have you considered what non-moderator/operator/admin players think. You mean we're having fun with our melon farms. We have put a lot of time and resources into our farms. You say your minds can't be changed. So basically your saying that you don't care about your players. Ya know the players, the people who vote, the people who make the server popular. You all work hard on the server. How would like it if suddenly no one cared about what you thought and just canceled out about all your work. My farm is a manual farm. I put a lot of time in. I'm angry. If this post isn't seen, or is ignored; I will have lost all faith in opticraft: the server that was supposed to be the best in existence. Now we got the owners of the server not giving a crap about what the players think.
PS: Stop putting the vote now message up on, we're not gonna vote if you don't care about us

A vote would be useless. What player would turn down the opportunity to make an insane amount of money really fast? No one. That would be basically the same thing as putting up a vote on whether we should give out free money, everyone will vote yes because they want all the money.

In no way is it free money, because it takes money to make money. It required hours upon hours of hand farming to buy a protection stone. Then weeks to mine and farm enough iron to build anything useful. For a 41x41x3 farm, the iron and redstone required exceeds $24,000.  When you cant make money off SELLING iron and redstone because you need it, gold is in extremely short supply, and diamonds are unsellable, what other means do you have of making up that money? By no means is this ANYTHING remotely similar to "free money".

You seem to misunderstand, I didnt say it was free money. I was using the free money as an analogy to explain why a vote was useless because players wouldn't vote against an easy way to make money.

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

If people want to turn into enemies because we are trying to balance out the economy let them. We will see about the number of players. Also you are not entitled to anything, donating is all optional, sure donations keep us running now but within the first few months of the server, opti paid out of his pocket to keep the server running.

You can call it a "hasty and poorly-thought out" decision all you want. Truth is, we have been discussing this for months now. As for players approval, see my response above again.

[caitslove]

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

So, would you rather keep on loading the CPU so much until it runs out of room and lag the server out to the point where it's unplayable? Have it shut down unexpectedly because he can't pay for it anymore because of all the chunk updates that contain so much information?

You really need to think about what he has to go through just to keep this running. WE DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING-- You are using something that Optical has invested a LOT a money into. Continuing down this road of "building an automatic farm and afk'ing for a few hours and simply pressing a button to get all of the resources" is DAMAGING to the server. It's a great idea at first, but then more people catch on and soon the whole server is covered in auto farms sapping away CPU and causing a CRAPTON of lag, which nobody likes either. Guess whose fault it would have been if this were to continue? You think it's always the staff's fault?

And cheif149 keeps telling you people that there is a FIX for that, don't berate me for the inability of the developers to fix CPU problems. And I reiterate, WHY keep spending money on it when you are going to drive the players away???

[Chief149]

Then perhaps I should ask why it is Optical keeps the server running?

After all, if he doesn't get enough money in donations then the remainder of the aproximate $500 per month (that's the price I see for a lot of quad core servers with gigabit fiber-optic internet) has to come out of his pocket. It's our donations and our votes which are the reason optical keeps the server up. Now I personally will continue to vote for opticraft, but then there are all the other players who will just leave for a server which has more of a market (at least a market with selling melons and pumpkins at their avail.).

So I have a feeling this could potentially hurt the server.
Plus the real killer is putting the member world on the same server (app, not the same box). That gives the room for more of these automated farms to be produced.

[Nick3306]

Then perhaps I should ask why it is Optical keeps the server running?

After all, if he doesn't get enough money in donations then the remainder of the aproximate $500 per month (that's the price I see for a lot of quad core servers with gigabit fiber-optic internet) has to come out of his pocket. It's our donations and our votes which are the reason optical keeps the server up. Now I personally will continue to vote for opticraft, but then there are all the other players who will just leave for a server which has more of a market (at least a market with selling melons and pumpkins at their avail.).

So I have a feeling this could potentially hurt the server.
Plus the real killer is putting the member world on the same server (app, not the same box). That gives the room for more of these automated farms to be produced.

Please re read my post becuase you missed a huge part of it regarding donations.

You dont understand, it does not in anway make it any better. As I have previously explained to you, adding another world does not make a huge performance hit, tons of melon farms, on the other hand, does. So even if we only had 1 world, we would still have done this.

Cait, you cant use what cheif says an an example because I have explained why it wouldnt help.

[caitslove]

Then perhaps I should ask why it is Optical keeps the server running?

After all, if he doesn't get enough money in donations then the remainder of the aproximate $500 per month (that's the price I see for a lot of quad core servers with gigabit fiber-optic internet) has to come out of his pocket. It's our donations and our votes which are the reason optical keeps the server up. Now I personally will continue to vote for opticraft, but then there are all the other players who will just leave for a server which has more of a market (at least a market with selling melons and pumpkins at their avail.).

So I have a feeling this could potentially hurt the server.
Plus the real killer is putting the member world on the same server (app, not the same box). That gives the room for more of these automated farms to be produced.

Please re read my post becuase you missed a huge part of it regarding donations.

You dont understand, it does not in anway make it any better. As I have previously explained to you, adding another world does not make a huge performance hit, tons of melon farms, on the other hand, does. So even if we only had 1 world, we would still have done this.

Cait, you cant use what cheif says an an example because I have explained why it wouldnt help.

I'm sorry Nick, but I see lots of "it won't work" and not much legitimate technical explanation for why it will not work. You asked us to break it down for you, so why don't you give it a shot.

[Chief149]

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

So, would you rather keep on loading the CPU so much until it runs out of room and lag the server out to the point where it's unplayable? Have it shut down unexpectedly because he can't pay for it anymore because of all the chunk updates that contain so much information?

You really need to think about what he has to go through just to keep this running. WE DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING-- You are using something that Optical has invested a LOT a money into. Continuing down this road of "building an automatic farm and afk'ing for a few hours and simply pressing a button to get all of the resources" is DAMAGING to the server. It's a great idea at first, but then more people catch on and soon the whole server is covered in auto farms sapping away CPU and causing a CRAPTON of lag, which nobody likes either. Guess whose fault it would have been if this were to continue? You think it's always the staff's fault?

And cheif149 keeps telling you people that there is a FIX for that, don't berate me for the inability of the developers to fix CPU problems. And I reiterate, WHY keep spending money on it when you are going to drive the players away???

You don't need to say that the developers are incapable, or unable to do anything. Lemme ask you, do you have any clue how to code a marketplace plugin??? I think not. Heck, idk how well I would do trying to code something like that (although I do know java but Ive never made server plugins before).

But the point made above is that I am giving suggestions which I predict would work fairly well against the issues we are facing WHILE keeping the majority of players happy, and perhaps it is a little hard-headed of the moderators and admins here to find every excuse to put those suggestions down, but that leads me to another point. Perhaps the players are being hard-headed as well? Perhaps we are being too hard-headed to accept the idea of not being able to sell melons and pumpkins.

Therefore I think the final statement of this argument is to keep with the plans of removing the items from the server. THEN if we find things going wrong such as a reduction in votes, donations, and/or players in the server, then lets bring back the melon and pumpkin selling. In other words, lets try it, and see how well it works, and if things go downhill then bring it all back and think of a new solution.


Also Nick, in my post that you quoted I stated that the member world is a killer NOT because of it being a new world. I understand it doesn't take a performance hit, but it does double the amount of available space for players to produce farms, and the ability to add more farms very easily in all of this new space is what will increase cpu usage as more farms would normally be produced in this new landscape. That's what the killer is.

[ViperZeroOne]

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

So, would you rather keep on loading the CPU so much until it runs out of room and lag the server out to the point where it's unplayable? Have it shut down unexpectedly because he can't pay for it anymore because of all the chunk updates that contain so much information?

You really need to think about what he has to go through just to keep this running. WE DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING-- You are using something that Optical has invested a LOT a money into. Continuing down this road of "building an automatic farm and afk'ing for a few hours and simply pressing a button to get all of the resources" is DAMAGING to the server. It's a great idea at first, but then more people catch on and soon the whole server is covered in auto farms sapping away CPU and causing a CRAPTON of lag, which nobody likes either. Guess whose fault it would have been if this were to continue? You think it's always the staff's fault?

And cheif149 keeps telling you people that there is a FIX for that, don't berate me for the inability of the developers to fix CPU problems. And I reiterate, WHY keep spending money on it when you are going to drive the players away???

Considering this is only your 7th post Caitslove you can't really be a good judge of what the community will or won't do.  So what, this change is going to piss off a FEW players (not hundreds, let's not get overly dramatic here).  It's going to make the world better in the long run because players will have to put forth an EFFORT to gain their wealth and the ugly massive farms will be vanishing from the skyline.

I hate when people talk about the "effort" required to build an autofarm.  It's not a huge effort.  I put more effort into building my islands.  The only major expense to an autofarm is the pistons (which they're addressing).  All of the redstone can be easily mined, I've got crates and crates of the stuff to prove that.  Other materials... Well, lets face it, most farms are just made out of stacks of dirt and cobble (or another cheap building block).  The expense isn't that much, but considering how much money you make off these farms in a short period of time you're VERY QUICKLY paid back whatever you spent.  Heck, most players will even use their half-built farms to pay for the construction of the rest of it, so really how much did you actually spend?

There's a problem with the "economy" and these massive farms are the cause of it.  I still agree 100%, as I've always agreed, that the money hole in the market should be plugged.  Again I have to say a HUGE kudos to Optical and the rest of the staff who made this decision.  Bravo!

[Chief149]

Well another use posted the suggestion of making beef and whatnot sellable in the marketplace. This could perhaps be what allows us to make money as opposed to the farms.

[Nick3306]

There are a million other servers out there that offer more than this server offers. We all chose this server BECAUSE we liked the way it was set up, we enjoyed being able to make the money on our own terms. But by removing this method of making money, you are making enemies of your player base. You may as well start paying less for the server because the # of players will diminish moving forward from this point. And you bring up the point that we feel entitled. By all means I think we are. We keep you running, our donations, our votes, that all MATTERS. I'll ask this, why do you continue to keep the server running and spend that money when you are just going to make hasty and poorly thought-out decisions for your players without their approval? And I say hasty and poorly-thought out because no warning was given that you were even CONSIDERING this. We get one week to enjoy our hard work and then it's useless, yeah, thanks a heap.

So, would you rather keep on loading the CPU so much until it runs out of room and lag the server out to the point where it's unplayable? Have it shut down unexpectedly because he can't pay for it anymore because of all the chunk updates that contain so much information?

You really need to think about what he has to go through just to keep this running. WE DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING-- You are using something that Optical has invested a LOT a money into. Continuing down this road of "building an automatic farm and afk'ing for a few hours and simply pressing a button to get all of the resources" is DAMAGING to the server. It's a great idea at first, but then more people catch on and soon the whole server is covered in auto farms sapping away CPU and causing a CRAPTON of lag, which nobody likes either. Guess whose fault it would have been if this were to continue? You think it's always the staff's fault?

And cheif149 keeps telling you people that there is a FIX for that, don't berate me for the inability of the developers to fix CPU problems. And I reiterate, WHY keep spending money on it when you are going to drive the players away???

You don't need to say that the developers are incapable, or unable to do anything. Lemme ask you, do you have any clue how to code a marketplace plugin??? I think not. Heck, idk how well I would do trying to code something like that (although I do know java but Ive never made server plugins before).

But the point made above is that I am giving suggestions which I predict would work fairly well against the issues we are facing WHILE keeping the majority of players happy, and perhaps it is a little hard-headed of the moderators and admins here to find every excuse to put those suggestions down, but that leads me to another point. Perhaps the players are being hard-headed as well? Perhaps we are being too hard-headed to accept the idea of not being able to sell melons and pumpkins.

Therefore I think the final statement of this argument is to keep with the plans of removing the items from the server. THEN if we find things going wrong such as a reduction in votes, donations, and/or players in the server, then lets bring back the melon and pumpkin selling. In other words, lets try it, and see how well it works, and if things go downhill then bring it all back and think of a new solution.


Also Nick, in my post that you quoted I stated that the member world is a killer NOT because of it being a new world. I understand it doesn't take a performance hit, but it does double the amount of available space for players to produce farms, and the ability to add more farms very easily in all of this new space is what will increase cpu usage as more farms would normally be produced in this new landscape. That's what the killer is.

Ya i understood that, i was simply saying that even without this world we would have done this. So even if there wasnt double the space for farms, the number of farms were just too high.

Someone like prinkey who has been on the server for about a month can already afford 102 diamond protection stones. That means he can reserve 7029942 blocks. That is just too high for a player who has been on the server for a little over a month.

As cschurz stated, we are exploring new ways for selling items to other players instead of just to the market.

[Chief149]

neverending wall of text

I have the possible solution:
http://blocktopia.net/wiki/SMP_Plugins#ChestShop

In fact, if someone could get me pointed in the right direction for coding smp plugins I MIGHT be able to make a draft of a player shop script. Note that I say that I MIGHT be able to. I've never coded a server plugin before so yeah :/