Proposed smp changes

[DeeKay]

I only have one question DeeKay

currently new 1.8... blocks are only available in market or by crafting as we had no expansion of the worlds an no new worlds added when these blocks were added, if you propose to remove the market and not create new world, or expand borders on current worlds, where do people get these blocks at a reasonable cost?  Crafting is quartz heavy while mining in their biomes plentiful.

I suppose I forgot to mention the world borders. If there were to be no wipe and if the market were to be removed, then yes an extension of perhaps all world borders would be in place to compensate for this, which is still much better than adding a new world. Obviously you can imagine a full wipe wouldn't have this issue, which was where my post was coming from, which is why I hadn't mentioned this.

[daniblue182]

A total wipe of the server  would be very good, if the worlds are up for download and not removed completely, people shouldn't get their knickers in a twist.
It's a shame that's been crossed off, surely if a new world was added and there was a time limit to move stuff over to the new world, then it wouldn't be such a big change for some people who worked hard to get what they have if they don't completely want to start again.

But again it's a big shame people are so reluctant to change the majority of the time.

[Mr_Mr_Mr]

- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
Yes. I think that a wipe should happen because I've pretty done everything I could in the game. I don't really care that I spend a whole lot of time working on the things on the server because I haven't touched them in a long time anyway and I don't intend to touch them in the future either. A restart would be inviting for me to come back. When it comes to gaming people should be used to losing everything, the whole point of the game is to build up from nothing. If you're constantly stuck at the endgame it is no fun.

Pros:
- Too many people are at the end game and there isn't much to do anymore.
- It is inviting to old people to return and inviting to new players because they won't be so far behind.

Cons:
- Even though it would be up for download, everything in the server would completely lose value to me. However, everything currently has no value to me anyways (except nostalgia) so this con is pretty much useless.

- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
Simplification, not removal, a wipe would be nice too. I don't think that the economy should be removed because that's something I used to keep me going on the server. It's what made opticraft unique for me and I would be sad if we were to lose it completely. But then again, I have no intentions on touching the server again unless there is a wipe, so I really couldn't care less in a way. I think the economy is too inflated right now, so a simplification and reset would be ideal.

Pros:
- No more annoying farms or competition to see who has the most money.
- More motivation for player trading if removed. (I personally like this concept)

Cons:
- People who like to build will find it harder to gather a ton of blocks to make things.
- No drive to play, vanilla or close to vanilla survival can be very boring and there wouldn't be anything to strive for.

- Addition of pvp modes
Yes. If we are talking about the modes we were going to have with the old dev (forgot his name) then yes. If not, then it really depends on what you have purposed and how much time it would take you guys away from making more important/greater things. I'm willing to bet what you have purposed is something much better than the half assed arenas you made a while back.

Pros:
- It would be something else for people to do.
- I love PVP, so if it's good I'd like it.
- PVP can be addicting and would get people to join and potentially stay.

Cons:
- I don't see any other than it could be another flop if not done right.

- Addition of a player trading system
Yes. Personally I think something like the grand exchange (GE) in runescape would be amazing. If that's the case then removing the economy seems useless. If you're not thinking of something as big as the GE, I think a player to player simple trading system would be nice because it would invite players to interact with each other more instead of not saying anything and being able to go to the market and buy a shit ton of building materials or rare items.

Pros:
- If the economy would be removed, this would give some people to strive towards things, maybe trade for building materials.

Cons:
- We would have to keep an economy if we did a massive trading system like the GE. This can be solved by simply not having a GE system.

- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
Indifferent, (most likely yes). I don't really see much use for this unless the economy was to be removed. I would also suggest against being able to buy rare items, rare items should stay rare. I love it when games don't allow you to simply buy rarer items (Even if they are over priced, because then you'd focus on grinding points instead of going out to get it yourself) and make you work for them because if gives you something to strive for.

Pros:
- Something to give you things to look forward to.
- If the economy were removed, this could be a nice replacement.

Cons:
- If there's an economy, what's the point?

- Change to a player defined protection field system
No. I personally think pstones work great, except when they break and an op has to bring you another. They are really simple and easy to use.

Pros:
- Pstones have limited area and are a pain to place everywhere to make sure your whole build is covered. A new system (World Edit-Type system) would be great for protecting your whole house all at once.

Cons:
- Pstones are really simple to use and inviting.
- Pstones work fine as is at the moment.

[Lando_V]

Regarding a reset. It is understandable that some people have reached their limit in Minecraft and want to start over. It is also very understandable that others can go far beyond that limit and want to keep going. I don't see why those that have reached their limit cannot start over just by themselves. Instead they want to reset the server, not only for themselves but also for those that do not need/want a reset at all.

I'm glad that a reset is not an issue anymore. It could have meant the end of Opticraft.  (I've experienced similar situations on UO servers, long ago.)


Regarding the economy. I think it's a good idea to remove it and focus more on survival. I mentioned this in 2013 and I'm glad more people would like that too now.
I'm on /Baltop  No. 1 so I actually have the most to lose from it but I don't mind losing it all if the entire economy is removed. A survival server with an economy isn't realy a survival server.

Btw, the fact that we cannot sell items for money doesn't mean we are less wealthy. Resources mean wealth too.


Regarding farms. That's something that will always be a part of minecraft and it will always make certain players wealthier than others just because they make more of an effort to collect items. People should remember that there's nothing unfair about it, everybody can do it, you just have to put time and effort into it. Farms are what drives me to play MC.


Regarding pvp. I think it would be wonderful if we had an extra separate world, but with pvp allowed on it. You don't want pvp? Then just don't go there.


Regarding a player trading system. I'd like that very much. Safe trading, no cheating. Would be great.


Regarding a points system and a protection system. No idea how this would work but if there's any easy way to protect your builds, without complex side effects, by gathering points, I'm game!


Lastly, I'm very much in favour of adding a new 1.9 world because just updating the other worlds doesn't mean they have all the 1.9 features.

[360OLLIE]

- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
I'm in favor of the Removal of the economy system including market-bought items.
- Addition of pvp modes
Go ahead, I'm not a huge fan of raw PVP but I see no problem with the idea.
- Addition of a player trading system
Yes please
- Points system
Yes please
- Change to a player defined protection field system
Undecided

I'll probably follow up with a more elaborate post on the pstones and trading / points system.

[100penguin.]

- Change to a player defined protection field system
Not necessary, pstones are simple and effective.

They're effective, but not simple. They don't work particularly well with name changes, they break after time (Making extra effort for staff) and most importantly they rely on money. This means that poorer players are at higher risk of being griefed, and are unable to claim interesting or useful things - richer players often claim large swathes of biomes for their personal use, whereas poorer players can't.

[Ramkitty]

Although there are many points listed in the OP only one stands out to me and that is the complete wipe of the server. I have to say i am 100% completely in favour of this idea and see it is a shame that this has been crossed off. I am very much with MR on this when i say that i reached the end game in MC. I want something new and fresh and fun to do, i dont want to run around an old and messed up world where i feel like i have seen it all before, frankly walking round some parts of the world makes me feel sad because it looks so run down. Change is a scary thing but this is change for the better, to make us feel like Opticraft again. To entice old members to come back and interact with everyone, offer new challenges and in turn create new friendships with people which will im sure lead to some epic builds. I have always stuck around here for the community because you guys are what makes this place great, i find it really disheartening that we have completely dismissed the idea of a wipe just because a few people do not want to change and embrace what could be an even better server and offer up an even more enjoyable experience.

Its not as if you would be losing what you worked for! They would be available to download so you can continue to work with each other.

Please i would urge people to re-consider this decision and hopefully this idea could be posed once again.

[UnknownHedgehog]

Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I also changed my mind on the whole worlds being there as an archive in favor of the original idea of the old worlds simply being up for download.

[kagarium]

Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I agree. I'm also in favor of wiping the map and staring fresh. Even though I myself am working on a few projects, I think this would be a great way to start off fresh, especially if we go for the changes to the economy



Maybe as a compromise some of the builds on the server could be moved to the new map. Criteria for that could be something like: 1-Player who owns the build must still be active 2-Must be at least X by X by X large 3- Must have previously obtained a project/city protection.

Probably could be improved a bit, but that's just and idea of something that might work

[daniblue182]

Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I support this ^_^

[TheWholeLoaf]

Maybe as a compromise some of the builds on the server could be moved to the new map. Criteria for that could be something like: 1-Player who owns the build must still be active 2-Must be at least X by X by X large 3- Must have previously obtained a project/city protection.

Probably could be improved a bit, but that's just and idea of something that might work

I have thought about this idea several times in the past, but I believe it would be far too complicated and have too many issues to be done successfully. It would take a vast amount of time for the few upper staff to get this done, either by WEing over the builds or using mceidt. Also, not every build works well when its taken out of the context of the landscape it was built into, we cant just take a build that was in the side of a mountain and try to fit it perfectly into a new world. Also, we would have to give a time slot for people to submit an application of shorts for something like this, over a long period of time so that our newer players that have settled in have a chance to see whats going to happen and react, otherwise, there will be a large amount of people who never got the chance to request their build moved.

The prospect of only moving builds that have been granted project protection only helps out our older players, who have had many years of game play with their builds where as the newer members would get nothing of the sorts. I feel most older members would continue playing because they love the community while the newer players don't quite know the community yet and might need some more incentive.

Something I thought that could possibly replace this idea, is that everyone can move one inventory full of stuff over to the new world. This would give the newer players that just started the chance to continue on what they have done, and give players the chance to take some of their builds down and recreate them. This would of course mean that they would not be available in the downloadable worlds however.
Just a thought to help out the newer members if there is a server wipe.

I'm wondering why a server wipe was taken off the table so early into the debate. As with most things, there's a substantial divide between opinions on this one matter, but I believe that offering the worlds as downloads is a pretty good middle ground.

Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I support this ^_^

I also support this.

[OzzyKP]

I've read through everything in the thread, and I'd like to begin by thanking Nick and the staff for opening this discussion and for seriously looking into improvements for the server.  I'm also glad that with only a few exceptions, the discussion has been civil and constructive.  Considering the far-reaching consequences of these changes, I'm pleased to see this discussion.

For my part, I am only here for one reason: my city.  I have been working on it since the first moment I joined this server, back in the fall of 2012.  It is more or less the only thing I have ever done in Minecraft and the only reason I play Minecraft.  Needless to say, if that was wiped I'd have no reason to be here.  I am, of course, strongly against erasing my work.  Notwithstanding the practical difficulties involved, I'd be in favor of transferring it to a new world.  But lacking that option, I'm very much against a server wipe. 

I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together.  But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build.  Go figure.  What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around.  What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items?  Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over?  I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own.  Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over.  Why don't you? 

Those of us who haven't yet "reached the end" of our creativity and interest in our builds shouldn't suffer for your boredom. 

But I didn't intend the server wipe to be the focus of this post, I see (thankfully) that it has been taken off the table.

- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of a player trading system

I am very interested, and supportive, of changes to the economy system.  I'd very much like some kind of actual market economy on the server.  Where players can buy & sell whether they are online or not.  This has been discussed many times before, and is a fantastic idea.  I'm STRONGLY in favor of a completely player-run economy.  I'd give specifics on how I think it should be run, but I'm not familiar with what plugins exist or what they're capable of.  Gavin's suggestions are broadly on target.  Players should buy and sell materials they've created/harvested, and they should set their own prices based on supply and demand.  The server just needs to facilitate the method of exchange.  Gavin suggested a barter system, glass for wool, or what-have-you.  I'd advise against that, it'd be much clunkier than using money.  I'm personally fine if we wipe out all the money we have now, but I strongly recommend we keep some kind of money system to use for buying/selling.

This system would still reward those who invest their time in making massive farms.  They'd have more of a supply of items to sell, and can undercut the prices of anyone else.  Of course if they flood the market with some item, it'd be worth much less (like how the price of dragon eggs declined sharply over the years as they became easier to get).  But not all resources can be farmed.  The price of iron might drop, but someone wanting to invest time in harvesting glowstone could probably still command a great price. 

I think we shouldn't turn our noses up at those whose Minecraft ambition is to have the biggest pot of money.  I don't care at all about it, but if it is an incentive to some players (and clearly it is) then let them seek out virtual riches by providing everyone else with a useful service of harvesting resources.   For those who are bored with the server, this provides a great new fun activity.  Some can aspire to corner the endstone market, or try to become a coal baron, etc.  It would add a new dimension to the game.

I understand that the current market makes building easier (which is both a good or bad thing depending on perspective).  I've personally been reluctant to use it too much (except as a way to sell all the stone & dirt and such I excavate), most of the materials I use in my city are things I've harvested myself.  I'm really excited about the idea of a player-run economy.  The current market distorts everything and I agree we should do away with it. 

- Addition of pvp modes

I really don't have an opinion about PVP. I don't do it, and don't care about it.  But if it'll get more players on the server (and if there is a way I can opt out of it so people don't just drop in on me in the middle of building and murder me) then I'm fine with whatever. 

- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.

Eh, I dunno.  If we go with a truly player-driven economy, then I'd like to have one common currency for all our transactions.  Call it points, call it money, it doesn't matter.  But if we want the economy to take off, then everything should be unified.  I think the beauty of Minecraft is the way in which it mirrors life.  Chop a tree, mine some stone, smelt some iron, etc.  Build things out of the natural resources around us.  That, I feel, is the essence of survival mode.   Whenever we introduce a parallel reward system it takes our focus away from the primary system.  We should buy protection or rare items with the same currency we use for player shops. 

The one worry with introducing a purely player-run economy is getting it started.  Without the easy money that comes from selling items to a server-run market, we'll need a real motivation to participate in it.  If players really desire protection/rare items (and they do), then they'll work to harvest/sell items that people want, which will jumpstart the economy.  It'll give us all a real incentive to get the economy working smoothly. 

The trick then is how to handle voting & donation rewards.  It could have the same kind of distortionary effect that the market currently does.  So perhaps have a point system and allow one-way conversion of dollars for points.  You vote & donate, you get points which can be spent on protection & rare items.  You can convert money into points, but can't convert points into money. 

I very much enjoy my current city protection, and for selfish reasons I'd like to preserve it.  But protection is a very valuable commodity, and working to expand our protection field (through selling resources, voting or donating) would be a nice thing to drive our work (for those who are bored). 

I'd prefer that over a system that awards spendable points for digging. 

- Change to a player defined protection field system

I'm not sure what this means.  But giving players more control over protection would be great.  It would probably save staff some time/effort in administering things.

[OzzyKP]

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points. 

[Nick3306]

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.

that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

[OzzyKP]

So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.

that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.