Opticraft Community
Discussion forum => Legacy => Archives => Support => Topic started by: Kascas on June 09, 2012, 11:25:29 pm
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same project differend question, made a new topic, as this is not just a simple reply
read v1 here
http://www.opticraft.net/index.php/topic,10635.0.html
since of the latest changes in rules, i would like to know the exect reasons for it
as of a couple days ago, if been told by relkeb redstone timers are not allowed anymore :(
i asked if its couse of the repeaters, and he answered that was indeed the case
stil there are most likely other creative ways, to build "clocks" without laggy items 8)
at the time i guessed he was not fully sure and he responded that he preffers not to
is it realy about the clock itself? or are there other reasons involved? like afk farming?
couse if that is thats the case, i fear that i might be told my biggest smp project ever
including hours and hours of work and $$$ will be totaly useless as its fully auto, without an off switch? :'(
some mods already visited me concerning about my farm
and i responded that nick, already told me the server is not suffering from my farm
stil i have my concerns about spending all my hours in this, as there might be other reasons?
can i be assured that this will be 100% legal? :-\
as im not talking about just a couple hours here... im quiet no life 8)
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please operators allow this because not only kascas spent a lot of money in this, lots of other people including myself invested in this huge project.
the thing i don't understand is the no timer rule. Please explain to us why this is not allowed.
- a fellow member- eliasdemetriou
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Well I'm not an operator, but perhaps redstone timers do indeed have a processing toll on the server.
Lemme explain:
The server has to process EVERYTHING that happens. Every growing tree or plant, every dying leaf from a cut down tree, every destroyed block (including the block check" to make sure the player is allowed to destroy that block which happens prior to a block being destroyed) is all processed by the server, and each and every function requires the processor to make hundreds of calculations, the RAM to perform hundreds (or thousands?) of read/write operations, and even the hard drive to make many IO operations.
So the fact that the server might have to do heavy duty processing to perform the calculations that make a redstone timer work might be why they aren't allowed.
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above. Computers, hardware, and code are all my thing. Minecraft servers I am ok at, but I am no expert on them. I can just assume the above based on my logic of how stuff generally works.
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Guys? Why are you lazy?
Why dont u make a lever to give power to the whole thing and to open-close it every 5-10 mins.
The point " its fully automated" is just a fraud in my mind.
The whole system works form one point as I know. Change that point and everything are ok.
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Guys? Why are you lazy?
how about you being less lazy by reading all of the posts, your question would solve itself ;)
i find your first line very misplaced >:(
i dont have a magical lever that can activate all my bud switches from a distance
as for now, the only way i could think of is redstone
wich would not make alot of sence, as its a redstone free design ???
"The whole system works form one point as I know. Change that point and everything are ok."
dont realy understand what you were trying to say with this
@cheif149 ye thats what alot others also think
but that was the point in v1 wich was solved, this is about something else ;)
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My post was addressed to the redstone farms.
Further, my post was addressed to everyone who has auto-farms.
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The problem with auto farms is they lag the chunk they're in, and do put a bit of a load on the server. There aren't that many, which is why it's not noticed server-wide. If they were allowed you would see everyone building them, and then it would reflect on the server load.
The second thing to note, because of the lag, is that you're going to have neighbors pissed off at you for your farm always running and lagging them out. Too many complaints to mods and we have no choice but to disable it. Expecially if the farm is running when you aren't even online.
Another reason, as you mentioned, is AFK farming. People have an extremely low opinion of those who do that.
All of that said, I'm staying out of the "legality" of this kind of farm design.
Guys? Why are you lazy?
Why dont u make a lever to give power to the whole thing and to open-close it every 5-10 mins.
The point " its fully automated" is just a fraud in my mind.
The whole system works form one point as I know. Change that point and everything are ok.
I'd have to agree... Personally I think these farms are an eyesore and a waste of space. They're nothing to be proud of. All you're doing is replicating the same design over and over on every floor. Takes no talent, even though the builders of these monstrosities think they've created a proverbial Arc de Triomphe.
It would be nice if people actually had to properly FARM these things. Too bad Mojang made stems that'll reproduce pumpkins/melons on demand. Would have solved this issue all together if they would have just did pumpkins/melons the same as they did wheat. You know, requiring you replant them after harvesting.
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I agree also with your position on my comment. You characterized it very completely.
Btw, do you know what would be a damn killer to the auto-farm mellons?
A limit on mellons/pumpkins/gold of $10,000 value per day.
Then, the survival spirit of the non-millionaire would return for sure!
I got today 80k in less than 2 hours of gaming with sales.. I would be winner of that..:P
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I agree also with your position on my comment. You characterized it very completely.
Btw, do you know what would be a damn killer to the auto-farm mellons?
A limit on mellons/pumpkins/gold of $10,000 value per day.
Then, the survival spirit of the non-millionaire would return for sure!
I got today 80k in less than 2 hours of gaming with sales.. I would be winner of that..:P
Ahh! So a daily quota on how many pumpkins/melons you could turn in? Yea that would be awesome, and you're right it would probably return the feel of true SMP to Opticraft. That said, we'll probably be flamed by the very people we're technically insulting.
I miss the days of old, where players actually cleared out massive areas underground in order to gain materials for their awesomely epic structures above ground. Go look at the huge structures just outside the main gates over by Nyssa's city. If you go underground there are massive areas dug out where material was collected for them. Now that's a truly epic builder!
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we'll probably be flamed by the very people we're technically insulting.
that would be me >:( here comes my speech, prepair yourself :D
"The problem with auto farms is they lag the chunk they're in"
i dont see the problem of that? its my chunk, with my house, the only that suffers from this is me?
"and do put a bit of a load on the server."
following to nick, there is no proove of that, so your argument is invalid
"If they were allowed you would see everyone building them"
everyone is already allowed, it might be possible they will reconsider wich is the point of my topic
"The second thing to note, because of the lag, is that you're going to have neighbors pissed off at you for your farm always running and lagging them out. Too many complaints to mods and we have no choice but to disable it. Expecially if the farm is running when you aren't even online."
i dont realy have active neighbours as far as i know,
no one ever complained, besides the people that think i couse server lagg
and no my farm is not running if im not online
"Another reason, as you mentioned, is
AFK farming. People have an extremely low opinion of those who do that."
trying to get clear if this is/will be allowed
i dont afk farm, but i do auto farm while talking in the chat sometimes
"All of that said, I'm staying out of the "legality" of this kind of farm design."
all of this said, im saying "reconsider" of your negative opinion on my farm design
and on farm designing in general, as calling farm designers, "no talent" realy makes me sad >:(
@BT5 take away all ways to earn money, and i will dig my way into $$$ by selling even dirt stacks if needed 8)
you will never remove me from the nmbr 1 that easy :D your not going to solve it this way
sorry for the harsh posts, i need to protect my projects ;)
if you realy want to be negative about it you need to come with good arguments 8)
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I have no intention to remove you from No. 1.
But, since you think a thing like this, on 15/6 I finish with my exams and I will free the whole summer.
I would threat you in the balances if I would like to do so.
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Ok, so I don't wanna retype everything you said... So here's my rebuttal to you;
"The problem with auto farms is they lag the chunk they're in"
i dont see the problem of that? its my chunk, with my house, the only that suffers from this is me?
- It's nice of you to think of yourself. What about the poor player who might be mining through the area below you? You don't OWN a chunk, you only own the area you cover with your PS. If I'm mining 40 blocks under your farm, without even knowing your farm is there, and all of a sudden I start to suffer horrid lag for no reason, I'm going to bitch about it.
"and do put a bit of a load on the server."
following to nick, there is no proove of that, so your argument is invalid
- I know Nick said that, but I'm also a network server administrator. EVERTHING that happens on the server affects the server. If you break a block, it uses resources. Sure, they're minuscule but it does happen. If you lag an entire chunk, the server has to bring that chunk back up to speed. To say that NOTHING happens is just ignorance. And no, I'm not calling Nick ignorant, I'm just saying that his comment about there being no VISIBLE proof is being exaggerated by your statement.
"If they were allowed you would see everyone building them"
everyone is already allowed, it might be possible they will reconsider wich is the point of my topic
- No, people are building MANUALLY ACTIVATED farms. The farms we're discussing are 100% automated and either run off bud switches or clocks. This one in question has no way to be shut off. It will be active 24/7 and run any time someone is close to it, even if the player is offline. That's horrible, and yes if every farm was like that you would really notice the lag.
"The second thing to note, because of the lag, is that you're going to have neighbors pissed off at you for your farm always running and lagging them out. Too many complaints to mods and we have no choice but to disable it. Expecially if the farm is running when you aren't even online."
i dont realy have active neighbours as far as i know,
no one ever complained, besides the people that think i couse server lagg
and no my farm is not running if im not online
- Well then, your farm isn't one of the ones I'm referring to, is it?
"Another reason, as you mentioned, is
AFK farming. People have an extremely low opinion of those who do that."
trying to get clear if this is/will be allowed
i dont afk farm, but i do auto farm while talking in the chat sometimes
- As far as I know, AFK farming isn't CURRENTLY against the rules. I know they disabled chest magnets for a reason though. My comment was simply that people, myself included, have an EXTREMELY low opinion of those who AFK farm.
"All of that said, I'm staying out of the "legality" of this kind of farm design."
all of this said, im saying "reconsider" of your negative opinion on my farm design
and on farm designing in general, as calling farm designers, "no talent" realy makes me sad >:(
I didn't say these players have no talent. I said it takes no talent to build an auto-farm. The designs are all over YouTube, and odds are your design is probably already there too. All you do is take a very small build and replicate it a million times over. It's not unique in any way, shape, or form. The only thing unique is A, the collection area, or B, the (usually ugly) box that gets built around the farm.
sorry for the harsh posts, i need to protect my projects ;)
if you realy want to be negative about it you need to come with good arguments 8)
I actually think my arguments were pretty valid, from my point of view. Yours are also valid, from your point of view. They aren't valid to me because I don't share your opinion. It's my opinion that if you want an auto farm you should keep it pretty small and curb the greed. Play the game as it's intended, and if you really want an unlimited block supply go to Classic.
That said, you're definitely free to voice your opinions. I enjoy a good debate, as long as it doesn't go too far. :)
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I have no intention to remove you from No. 1.
But, since you think a thing like this, on 15/6 I finish with my exams and I will free the whole summer.
I would threat you in the balances if I would like to do so.
lol offtopic much but oh well
i did not ment you personaly removing me from it :D but myself just lowering ^^
be my guest if you like to challenge me tho ;D
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as you wish...keep on going here comes speech v2
Ok, so I don't wanna retype everything you said... So here's my rebuttal to you;
- It's nice of you to think of yourself. What about the poor player who might be mining through the area below you? You don't OWN a chunk, you only own the area you cover with your PS. If I'm mining 40 blocks under your farm, without even knowing your farm is there, and all of a sudden I start to suffer horrid lag for no reason, I'm going to bitch about it.
under my farm, is another farm, under that farm is my house, my house is fully protected no digging under it
even if a randomer would get near my farm, it would be an ultra rare occasion
- I know Nick said that...but
no buts, admin is admin, and im sure no one would care about something minuscule
- No, people are building MANUALLY ACTIVATED farms. The farms we're discussing are 100% automated and either run off bud switches or clocks. This one in question has no way to be shut off. It will be active 24/7 and run any time someone is close to it, even if the player is offline. That's horrible, and yes if every farm was like that you would really notice the lag.
alot high /baltops are using farms, alot automatic, its only a matter of time before everyone gets to hear the new rules
and ofcourse every farm would never be like that, as they dont build as big as i do
- Well then, your farm isn't one of the ones I'm referring to, is it?
if your not reffering to my farm, then none of your arguments matter on this topic, do they? ::)
- As far as I know, AFK farming isn't CURRENTLY against the rules. I know they disabled chest magnets for a reason though. My comment was simply that people, myself included, have an EXTREMELY low opinion of those who AFK farm.
alright you made your point, wich is your only good argument,
oh wait...thats MY argument i made against myself when starting this topic
I didn't say these players have no talent. I said it takes no talent to build an auto-farm.
im mostly busy making a farm, if your saying it takes no talent, you are stil saying i got no talent
It's my opinion that if you want an auto farm you should keep it pretty small and curb the greed. Play the game as it's intended, and if you really want an unlimited block supply go to Classic.
i indeed preffer to do some maintance in my farms , while you play outside trying to survive
enjoy playing it your way
alrighty speech v2 finished
please dont bother to reply again if your not going to improve/add any argument
again sorry if my posts are harsh, but if your opinion is shared with the admins
then i should start griefing all my projects, as they will all be useless, including all effort making them
il just wait for an admin+ to dicide what the exact rules will be on auto farms/my farms
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Nick told me ingame
dont worry, build your farm, be happy ;D
i gues i can assume i dont have to worry about it anymore
going to continue building again
and im happy:D
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I've got to toss in my 2 cents to this discussion as I am working on building some complex large semi-automatic farming machines my self.
I can certainly understand the debate about fully automatic farms being good or bad.
There was some discussion here too about farming machines lacking creativity, being repetitive and not being very nice looking.
Let me up the ante a bit... I've been building my machines without placing water for the farms but instead creatively building into the landscape around naturally occurring water. It's a unique challenge and has been an interesting way to play the game. It forces you to think outside of the box and engineer some unique solutions that you can't just look up on youtube.
Try it some time.
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It would be nice if people actually had to properly FARM these things. Too bad Mojang made stems that'll reproduce pumpkins/melons on demand. Would have solved this issue all together if they would have just did pumpkins/melons the same as they did wheat. You know, requiring you replant them after harvesting.
It has nothing to do with Mojang here. It's the server's market that makes those items so valuable. If pumpkins didn't sell for so much, there's no way I would have a pumpkin farm like I do now. In my single player and local smp server, I have wheat farms, because wheat is a more useful item than melons or pumpkins.
That being said, always on AFK farming is pretty cheap though for an SMP server. I considered making one, but I just assumed it'd be too much for the server and that it'd be too unfair to other players. It would essentially break the server's already easily exploitable economy.
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It would be nice if people actually had to properly FARM these things. Too bad Mojang made stems that'll reproduce pumpkins/melons on demand. Would have solved this issue all together if they would have just did pumpkins/melons the same as they did wheat. You know, requiring you replant them after harvesting.
It has nothing to do with Mojang here. It's the server's market that makes those items so valuable. If pumpkins didn't sell for so much, there's no way I would have a pumpkin farm like I do now. In my single player and local smp server, I have wheat farms, because wheat is a more useful item than melons or pumpkins.
That being said, always on AFK farming is pretty cheap though for an SMP server. I considered making one, but I just assumed it'd be too much for the server and that it'd be too unfair to other players. It would essentially break the server's already easily exploitable economy.
I actually do agree with you, but I still think that you should have to replant after you harvest. Either that or the growth of them should be much longer. My uncle grew pumpkins and watermelons (real) and if they popped up like they did in Minecraft he would have been a very rich man. He only got 1 harvest per year, whereas his wheat fields he could do 3 and sometimes 4 harvests a year. So why, in Minecraft, are pumpkins/melons so much easier to grow and harvest? I could see them being worth more than wheat if they weren't easy to harvest. Something is screwy in the market/Mojang area.
My little mini-server you couldn't even buy/sell them. Only resources could be sold, no food, and when talking food only seeds and apples could be purchased. That made player stores the only place you could get food products, which gave small player farms an actual purpose and kept players from building monster auto-farms.
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Ok i read all inside this topic and i really have no smart comments on any of replies u folks made here but in some way i must agree that melons/pumkins are too easy money making way.And there is maybe better more creative ways to make money like selling crafted stuff such is cake or bookshelfs that require player to farm weat,milk the cow,collect eggs,harvest sugar cane and finnaly to mix that up and get a cake.Allow us to sell those things to market for good money and do what u want with easy making blocks that can be sold for lot of cash.There is no way u can automaticly milk the cow ;D or collect the eggs for cake.Just put milk on market also cos of big lack of cows :-)
Dont want to offend anyone, this is just my opinion and for now i do use a player activated pumkin/melon farms but will gladly demolish them if there is more creative way of making money besides hundreds of farm designs.
I love making cakes because it require time to collect and craft them.
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Ok i read all inside this topic and i really have no smart comments on any of replies u folks made here but in some way i must agree that melons/pumkins are too easy money making way.And there is maybe better more creative ways to make money like selling crafted stuff such is cake or bookshelfs that require player to farm weat,milk the cow,collect eggs,harvest sugar cane and finnaly to mix that up and get a cake.Allow us to sell those things to market for good money and do what u want with easy making blocks that can be sold for lot of cash.There is no way u can automaticly milk the cow ;D or collect the eggs for cake.Just put milk on market also cos of big lack of cows :-)
Dont want to offend anyone, this is just my opinion and for now i do use a player activated pumkin/melon farms but will gladly demolish them if there is more creative way of making money besides hundreds of farm designs.
I love making cakes because it require time to collect and craft them.
You know what? I have to give you a huge !BRAVO! for your post. Yes indeed, if you can sell food on the market you're absolutely correct that it should be stuff that you unavoidably have to put effort into. (and no, crafting melon blocks from slices isn't effort) I'd love to see selling melons/pumpkins removed, or SERIOUSLY nerfed (like $15 a stack) while simultaneously having the addition of being able to sell large crafting items like cakes for a decent cost.
Mind you, you'll probably see all of the melon farms replaced with huge cow stables and auto wheat farms. But the manual labor involved each harvest would still make it better than the melon farms in my opinion.
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There is no way u can automaticly milk the cow ;D
lol i would hapily trade my life as a farm mega builder/designer for milking cows 24/7 and selling that at the market ::)
i dont think we will ever get an agreement here viper and others, :-\
as clearly you guys dont have any good word to spare about farms, while i have alot fun building them ;)
im so annoyed by the way you speak about auto farms, like they do not need any effort >:(
so let me try once more to explain why they DO
i currently have a very good, if not servers best farm, and even then it does not make me that rich quickly in any way
looking at all the hours, if not full 24hour days i invested, 8)
looking at all the $$$ i spend for it that i earned with another huge ammount of effort 8)
if spended enough effort to grind my farms for a long time, without any profit for a long ammount of time :'(
imo farms are long term investments that do require alot of effort and by no means an easy afk money maker
but...as my words do not seem to make any sence to you, il give you some maths
atm im getting 20k/hour at max from my farm, and this drops to about 5k/hour when its crowded
i have a total of 14 plants each row x13 rows x14 layer x 1.5 pistons = 3822 pistons
what does a piston need? iron? howmuch is iron? keep going...50 at minimum
no one is going to sell you huge loads for minimum, 60 when your very lucky
what about the other materials 3 wood 4 cobble redstone...
all and all i would consider 80 each piston lucky, so 80x3822 = 300K??!?!@?!@?!@ omg!
and THAT ladys and gentleman is only the start...
2548 plants (all with bone meal!)
2548 torches!
3822 blocks of sand!
8918 wooden planks!
over 10k dirt!
countless inventory's cobble stacks for the walls/roof!
you think thats cheap?
2 diamond ps to protect the place, kaCHIENG there goes another 110k!
consider yourself very very very lucky to build one of my size for 500k
considering your time zone is again "lucky" to make the average rate 10k instead of the common 5k most of the day
considering you use it at least an hour long every day!(and no, you cannot use it multiple hours while afk)
well...enjoy nearly a month of grinding if not longer, in your "effortless money maker"
to just earn back only what you have already spend on it!!!!!OMG???
GET IT?
is that enough effort for you?
no? oh wait i did not even mention that other thing...
just a minor detail...
you could aswell just ignore it...
all of the above materials need to actualy be BUILDED :o :o :o
howmany money you think i could make, if i did not spend these shitloads of hours on building it?
right........
those are 2 more then fair arguments, in why we DO take alot of effort in building these things
i hope these maths showed you a WAY differend view then you had in mind
and finely made you reconsider your "simple" opinion ::)
based on your own experience and desire to "adventure on hardmode"
if this post does not change your mind the slightest bit, you will have lost all my respect... >:(
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Actually Kascas, the argument isn't the effort it takes in BUILDING them. Clearly, it takes effort to build ANYTHING. The argument is what happens AFTER the build is done.
To make one of those massive auto-farms you simply have to put effort into replicating a very small design over and over again until it's a massive structure. I know, because I built a small version (hey I need money too). That said, once it's built all you have to do is press a button. After the construction is complete you can just harvest, harvest, harvest, and harvest. Where's the effort in that?
This is what I mean when I say "no effort". I'm not talking the construction. Any farm, even an automatic wheat farm, takes effort to build. What I mean is, after it's built there is no effort required. You never have to replant or anything. You just have to click a button. So it takes you $500K to build. Big woop. It only costs that much because you're buying materials. It could be free if you collected the materials yourself, like I did for my small one. That said, even if it did cost 500k, if you just AFK at the thing you'll make that back in under a week.
I have FAR more respect for a person who builds and operates a 2 story automatic wheat farm than I do for someone who builds a 100 story automatic pumpkin farm. But that's MY opinion, and you're free to have yours. It's a free country.
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Actually Kascas, the argument isn't the effort it takes in BUILDING them. Clearly, it takes effort to build ANYTHING.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ
So it takes you $500K to build. Big woop. It only costs that much because you're buying materials.
Yes i know you preffer to spend years underground to get such an ammount,
instead of working to get 500k in a couple months ::)
if you just AFK at the thing you'll make that back in under a week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ
besides my opinion, im throwing FACTS at you!
its not my opinion that it needs a month to earn it back, its a FACT
i could aswell just do it your way:
it happens to be my opinion that if you only play 1 minet a day
you need 9284 years to earn it back!!! wich is alot of effort!!!
wich is why in my opinion it does take effort!, its a free country right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ
il give up on this discussion, as i didnt see anything change between the first speech and the last ::)
enjoy writing your next post, im not even going to read it :-*
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Actually Kascas, the argument isn't the effort it takes in BUILDING them. Clearly, it takes effort to build ANYTHING. The argument is what happens AFTER the build is done.
To make one of those massive auto-farms you simply have to put effort into replicating a very small design over and over again until it's a massive structure. I know, because I built a small version (hey I need money too). That said, once it's built all you have to do is press a button. After the construction is complete you can just harvest, harvest, harvest, and harvest. Where's the effort in that?
This is what I mean when I say "no effort". I'm not talking the construction. Any farm, even an automatic wheat farm, takes effort to build. What I mean is, after it's built there is no effort required. You never have to replant or anything. You just have to click a button. So it takes you $500K to build. Big woop. It only costs that much because you're buying materials. It could be free if you collected the materials yourself, like I did for my small one. That said, even if it did cost 500k, if you just AFK at the thing you'll make that back in under a week.
I have FAR more respect for a person who builds and operates a 2 story automatic wheat farm than I do for someone who builds a 100 story automatic pumpkin farm. But that's MY opinion, and you're free to have yours. It's a free country.
There's a quote "you reap what you sow" kascas did the sow part by making the farm, so what's wrong with reapin by afk ing? It's better to afk and watch YouTube then timing ur clock every one min and click the damn button.
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i have alot fun building them ;)
I agree.
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topic about the "farm activation" itself over here
http://www.opticraft.net/index.php/topic,10970.0.html
a mod has pm'ed me that he will contact an admin to make guidelines for this