Opticraft Community
Discussion forum => Legacy => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Deleted111 on January 09, 2013, 07:33:51 am
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Deleted
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A very well thought out suggestion. I was not aware that the chest didnt have to be right under the sign, so a player market could look like the server one
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the problem with these plugins, as stated previously, is that eventually there will be chests and signs everywhere. the only real solution to that is to only allow building chest shops in a certain area, but then we'd need some sort of plotting system with automatic deletion of old/empty chest shops. it quickly becomes a difficult task.
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the problem with these plugins, as stated previously, is that eventually there will be chests and signs everywhere. the only real solution to that is to only allow building chest shops in a certain area, but then we'd need some sort of plotting system with automatic deletion of old/empty chest shops. it quickly becomes a difficult task.
Have it as a donation reward? Possibly something like 5 active chest shops and signs at once.
This way fewer people will have access to it, and they won't waste them by spamming them across the map.
Dunno, just a suggestion.
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How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
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How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
That's surprisingly smart :P
And I'd love to have a chest shop.... I'd donate for it. I do support the idea of this. I really don't think that it would be an huge issue with old shops. Because there are already hundreds of unused shops. Why would it be any different if they had a sign inside?
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I always sell stuff I don't need to the market, I don't want stand at a shop when I can do other things with my time, this plugin would change that. This would be a nice addition and I'd donate for this aswell.
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How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
I like this plan.
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How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
it's an ok idea, but it's not bullet proof. if we were to implement sign shops, you would no doubt find tons of signs and chests just outside of each spawn zone/town or other trafficked areas. if we implement your idea, then the same would happen - except one person would own the land. what happens when they stop playing, or stop caring about the sign? we can't trust them to remove the chest shop, nor can we trust them to remove the protection stone.
people would be protecting areas they don't need protected, just to put up a shop. it would not work well.
and that's not to mention the problem of actually implementing it - it would require a lot of modification of both chest shops and the protection stone plugin. not so easy.
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People dont like to waste protection stones. Unless they have 50k+ they wont do that idea and only a miniscule amount of the people have that much money. And nost are trusted or inactive.
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People dont like to waste protection stones. Unless they have 50k+ they wont do that idea and only a miniscule amount of the people have that much money. And nost are trusted or inactive.
Lot of people have that kind of money, from member to Op.
How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
it's an ok idea, but it's not bullet proof. if we were to implement sign shops, you would no doubt find tons of signs and chests just outside of each spawn zone/town or other trafficked areas. if we implement your idea, then the same would happen - except one person would own the land. what happens when they stop playing, or stop caring about the sign? we can't trust them to remove the chest shop, nor can we trust them to remove the protection stone.
people would be protecting areas they don't need protected, just to put up a shop. it would not work well.
and that's not to mention the problem of actually implementing it - it would require a lot of modification of both chest shops and the protection stone plugin. not so easy.
What if there was a flag on the protection stone that could be turned on for the player to be able to make the sign shop. Except the would have to ask a staff member to turn it on for them. That way, the staff member can decide if the area is sutable for a shop, and not just a random area.
It's not a very difficult task, so staff shouldn't have much of a problem with it, we would only have to remember the command.
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People dont like to waste protection stones. Unless they have 50k+ they wont do that idea and only a miniscule amount of the people have that much money. And nost are trusted or inactive.
Lot of people have that kind of money, from member to Op.
How about you require that the chests/signs be placed inside of the radius of a protection stone? That way, people could only place them in areas that they own and spamming becomes a non-issue.
it's an ok idea, but it's not bullet proof. if we were to implement sign shops, you would no doubt find tons of signs and chests just outside of each spawn zone/town or other trafficked areas. if we implement your idea, then the same would happen - except one person would own the land. what happens when they stop playing, or stop caring about the sign? we can't trust them to remove the chest shop, nor can we trust them to remove the protection stone.
people would be protecting areas they don't need protected, just to put up a shop. it would not work well.
and that's not to mention the problem of actually implementing it - it would require a lot of modification of both chest shops and the protection stone plugin. not so easy.
What if there was a flag on the protection stone that could be turned on for the player to be able to make the sign shop. Except the would have to ask a staff member to turn it on for them. That way, the staff member can decide if the area is sutable for a shop, and not just a random area.
It's not a very difficult task, so staff shouldn't have much of a problem with it, we would only have to remember the command.
even more modification of precious stones and chestshop, then having to maintain these modifications through bukkit updates - i'm still not convinced.
feel free to continue suggesting things, but please heavily consider how difficult something is to actually implement and maintain. simple solutions are welcome.
most chestshop plugins probably have a dupe exploit hidden somewhere inside of them, too - so keep in mind that optical or I would probably be writing our own chest shop system if someone can come up with an elegant solution to the aforementioned problem.
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The only way I could see TheWholeLoaf's suggestion being shot down is the argument that there would be a flood of users whining and begging for their protection stone to have it's flag set to allow sign shops, but it's a possibility.
There's another issue to sort out. Personally I don't think it will be the sign shops themself that will become the issue, but instead the signs advertising the sign shops. Players may start making hundreds of signs (now with technicolor!) saying "go to /home n00b3 for awesome sign shop!" all around, and we can't make signs a protection stone radius only thing.
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"Lots of people have that money, from member to op"
Even so, it costs 1500 for a coal PS. You cant fit many shops in an 11x11 area, as you cant have chests touching. To really spam the landscape, youd need a lapiz stone, and anyone below baltop 5 would not waste one. Besides, i havent seen any spammed chest shops on any server that ive been on. And if we were to code our own chest shop plugin, wouldnt it be easier to have it in only Pstones?
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But, as well as spaming them around spawns, someone could place one near another places shop or outside their house, trying to deture players from that shop and to theres, so you could also grief with it, plus, if you dont want you shop to be grieved, you'd still want a ps right? so whats the difference whether it's to protect ur shop or if its to protect ur shop and to make chest shops?
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If it were to be made a donation reward I doubt the person would spam it or forget about what they put their money towards.
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Just make another world/zone where they can only place the chests and make it so they get their own little plots, that way they aren't spammed throughout the world.
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Trusted + only? That could be a solution.
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We already have sign shops at Spawn and Town warps-- why do we need any more dotted all over the world? I think we've already went through several topics suggesting this as well.
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We already have sign shops at Spawn and Town warps-- why do we need any more dotted all over the world? I think we've already went through several topics suggesting this as well.
It's basically like starting your own business, and the market is the place with unlimited items, but higher prices. I think this should be added only if it's a donation and there is a unique zone/world; it would be kind of fun to own your own little business and to customize what the design of your shop looks like.
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Trusted + would be good, and a limited number of shops per player. Like I said before, aren't there already hundreds of unused homes and shops? how's this change that?
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We had a huge discussion about this a few months back (opti, relkeb, dejected, and I) and at the time we determined there was not an easy enough way to implement something like this at the time. These days we have even less time on their hands than we did back then
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Our spawn isn't too easy to spam. It's a frickin island. A floating one. You can jump off or do a /warp where ever you want.
I also have another idea. A /warp playermarket. This is the only place chestshops can be placed. There are shops you rent, and say it costs $100 per day to rent. You then have a 5x5 protected area only you can use for chest shops. You can only rent your shop for up to a month, so inactive players lose their shop. When a shop runs out, if the same person buys it they keep their items, but if a different person buys the shop, all items are lost.
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Our spawn isn't too easy to spam. It's a frickin island. A floating one. You can jump off or do a /warp where ever you want.
I also have another idea. A /warp playermarket. This is the only place chestshops can be placed. There are shops you rent, and say it costs $100 per day to rent. You then have a 5x5 protected area only you can use for chest shops. You can only rent your shop for up to a month, so inactive players lose their shop. When a shop runs out, if the same person buys it they keep their items, but if a different person buys the shop, all items are lost.
these complex ideas for a whole system which needs to be designed, programmed, bug-tested, etc. are not really helping the discussion here. all those little rules you give add up to a ton of work in actually implementing.
and no, it is not acceptable for players to just lose their items with potentially no warning under any circumstances
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Ok.
Chest/sign shop plugin.
After 1 month (of the owner not opening their chest shop chest) the chest and sign both lose their protection (automatically) and can be destroyed by anyone (solves the issue for inactive players).
Our spawn is difficult to spam due to the floating island attribute pointed out earlier... but.... maybe give it just to trusted players? Or better yet treat it like water. Members must request a moderator to set a sign as a chest shop sign, but trusted can do it themselves. Good spam reduction.
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Ok.
Chest/sign shop plugin.
After 1 month (of the owner not opening their chest shop chest) the chest and sign both lose their protection (automatically) and can be destroyed by anyone (solves the issue for inactive players).
How does that solve the problem? thats just grief....
OK kinda the same thing as i suggested earlier but maybe simpler.
Make it like /private or /public that only staff can use. so /chestshop or /shop
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A suggestion for suggestion:
What if the Admins+ were able to make one by area, have either small, medium, or large "plots" so they can sell their items or put a chests op in that designated area? People can rent out the plots and the rent could be payed per week from the console.
Say you payed once for rent, and you didn't the next week, the message would say this.
Console: You have not payed rent yet, and until then, you cannot access your chests ops at your plot. If you do not pay rent after two weeks, then your items will be given back to you, and you will have to claim them.
Any Agree/Disagreements?
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Our spawn isn't too easy to spam. It's a frickin island. A floating one. You can jump off or do a /warp where ever you want.
I also have another idea. A /warp playermarket. This is the only place chestshops can be placed. There are shops you rent, and say it costs $100 per day to rent. You then have a 5x5 protected area only you can use for chest shops. You can only rent your shop for up to a month, so inactive players lose their shop. When a shop runs out, if the same person buys it they keep their items, but if a different person buys the shop, all items are lost.
these complex ideas for a whole system which needs to be designed, programmed, bug-tested, etc. are not really helping the discussion here. all those little rules you give add up to a ton of work in actually implementing.
and no, it is not acceptable for players to just lose their items with potentially no warning under any circumstances
No One in here seems to be listening so I would just give up.
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most of us dont know what goes into coding and creating things like this so.... :/
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most of us dont know what goes into coding and creating things like this so.... :/
You don't need to..
We had a huge discussion about this a few months back (opti, relkeb, dejected, and I) and at the time we determined there was not an easy enough way to implement something like this at the time. These days we have even less time on their hands than we did back then
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Then why are they discussing it after they've come to the conclusion that there are no simple ways. Seems like there are two answers, don't do it at all or put the time and effort in for something difficult.
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I don't see the problem here. Spamming sign shops outside spawn and such is pretty much a waste of a sign and a chest. Anyone leaving spawn will be new, so not looking to buy much and having very little money, just exploring (And so not looking to buy anything, or they will use a /home, not even seeing these shops. The only effective place to put them would be at a /home that everyone knows about. The advantage of this is being able to sell while offline. Leaving adverts on signs outside spawn is no different to currently leaving adverts for shops; there is more of a risk of protected chests spammed outside spawn than advertisement signs (IMO).
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Deleted
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It is not as simple as installing an already made plugin. Since the plugin was not made by one of our devs you have to worry about a list of things which cschurz has already pointed out but everyone keeps ignoring. You have back doors, duping glitches, waiting for the plugin to be updated so we can update our server, and a whole list of other things that have to be taken into account. You cant just give it a trial run because if something were to go wrong, it could screw up the entire server economy in various ways. You seem to not understand how much decision making goes into using even the smallest of 3rd party plugins we use.
We have said this is something we would like to do but just have not figured out a good way to do it. Trust me, once we figure it out, we will have it for you guys to enjoy.
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most of us dont know what goes into coding and creating things like this so.... :/
You don't need to..
We had a huge discussion about this a few months back (opti, relkeb, dejected, and I) and at the time we determined there was not an easy enough way to implement something like this at the time. These days we have even less time on their hands than we did back then
Yes we do
I have no clue how you guys put stuff like this together and integrate it into the server, I was only trying to give a little push to possible spark an idea in cschurz or nicks head.....
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Deleted
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you make a backup and then install the plugin, if it fails or you find too many bugs you simply restore the backup.
Or, you run a test server on a side computer for a little while to make sure it works and to fix any bugs you find.
Two things wrong with this, they both fall under the same thing.
It's not as simple as 'finding the bug'. You could test a plugin for hours and not reveal a bug. Bugs in plugins don't always happen by simply testing the plugin, there are usually more advanced ways that bugs can occur.
If someone is skilled enough though, looking into the code will tell more than running the plugin on a server.
I'm sure this is what Optical and Dejected do, so there's no need to test anything when they can see the problem straight away. Not to mention how badly written plugins are these days.
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If you are that concerned with people abusing sign shops then just make it a Rule, and tell people what they can and can't do. The same as griefing, this server spends an inordinate amount of time on handling griefing, why would a few signs shops be a bigger problem?
1) allowing chest shops essentially causes grief. all those signs and abandoned shops will have to be dealt with.
2) people never follow rules.
3) we have indeed spent a lot of time on anti-grief methods - optical and I are college students. he works full time. a lot of these systems were put in place when time and motivation weren't an issue. adding to that list of things to do is not reasonable.
This server doesn't have it's own custom plugin to stop every griefer, that's taken care of by the mods. Why would you need a custom sign shop plugin when it wouldn't be anywhere close to a problem that griefing causes here?
apart from
- 30,000+ known compromised accounts pre-banned
- real time proxy detection
- automatic grief traps (a LARGE percentage of our total bans) (http://www.opticraft.net/index.php?topic=15772.0) - p.s you can get out of any grief trap without triggering it. requires a certain number of blocks before it bans.
- protection stones themselves
- a complete helpop support system that is far more powerful than any other servers
mods are simply the last line of defense to rollback grief. they are not constantly rolling back grief as you seem to think. our anti-grief systems are very effective considering we are not limiting legitimate players in any way.
Actually I have run my own game servers before and have used various premade plugins myself
because you can't code one yourself, correct?
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you can argue the specific details about every little thing and tell us how much experience you have on your own game servers all you want. we're not going to install a pre-made plugin unless it is open source and well written. nick and deekay did a good job of explaining why.
we ARE interested in providing a system that facilitates player to player trading. some sort of automatic shop, sign-made or not, would be great. from what we have seen on other servers, chest shops only pollute the world. feel free to make a new topic suggesting additional things.
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also,
previously banned for xray http://mcbouncer.com/user/zajhein/bansFor
twitter account that is nothing but spam https://twitter.com/zajhein
- who are you?
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Not sure if suggestions are even useful at this point, but I'll try again.
What if there was a designated area for people to make their shops, like a per-made building. Yes, it would have to be pretty massive but shouldn't be to difficult to build. Or just an open area...
Either way, they would have to be well organized.
Not sure if this had been sugested but just throwing it out there.
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This may just be my own ignorance here, but isn't the code already in place for the server market? Is the market specially coded as is, or is it based on the signs? I understand there would be minor revisions that would extend just removing money from a player's account, to also take that money and add it to a designated player's account, ie, the placer of the sign. I also would assume that this code is just being represented as a special block, much like the PSs, and could be sold at the market, much like the PSs.
I mean no disrespect in my argument, but the main argument against this so far just doesn't make sense to me. Signs and chests(and doors, furnaces, etc...) can already be used to freely grief land, but that hasn't prevented the use of LWC. Having the item at a cost at the market would make it as pointless to abuse as buying PSs and spamming them all over the server. I understand that both of these parallels are not exact, as neither of them actually offer any incentive to the spammer, while a functioning shop would, but I don't believe it would become an issue. And whether it ended up being deemed acceptable or not, I personally would find it interesting to stumble upon a random chest in the middle of a desert offering some goods that I may be in need of at the time.
I don't think any extra coding to enforce any sort of restrictions would be necessary. What little bit of extra spam that may be generated can be handled by mods on an as needed basis. Any rules deemed necessary can be just be stated
in the location the items are sold, but again, it just seems more of a 'use common sense' rule, just as PSs and LWC items don't really come with any rules, however, are managed by the mods/ops when a conflict arises. I understand the whole argument of the ops having enough to do, but does that mean the server should never be improved if it means there's a chance an op might be called on occasion. It's a necessary evil.
Also, though I'm a coder in real life, I don't know much about how Minecraft mods are made, but would it be easier to take the trapped chest from the next update and mod a new block out of that one. Personally, I like the idea to make a payed sign that generates a redstone pulse, as it would open up so many more possibilities for player builds, but anything is better than nothing, so if it would be easier to just modify the existing mod used in the market, that would be understandable.
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Sorry to barge in, but:
This may just be my own ignorance here, but isn't the code already in place for the server market?
The market uses a different plugin called Essentials.
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Sorry to barge in, but:
This may just be my own ignorance here, but isn't the code already in place for the server market?
The market uses a different plugin called Essentials.
no, optical made his own implementation of sign-shops. we no longer use essentials to handle teleportation signs or market signs.
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Sorry to barge in, but:
This may just be my own ignorance here, but isn't the code already in place for the server market?
The market uses a different plugin called Essentials.
no, optical made his own implementation of sign-shops. we no longer use essentials to handle teleportation signs or market signs.
Ok thanks for letting me know, I was a little bit outdated because I haven't played Opticraft for a while :)
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Make it either only peaceable in your protection stone areas or moderators only.
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i believe that chest and sign shops would be a great idea
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Not to go against the ops (though that is exactly what I'm doing), sign shops would be a great idea. I run a small shop that almost no one ever goes to. It's a great little shop, and adding a sign shop would probably increase business. I understand that the coding would be hard, but I think it would be worth it. These are just my thoughts, so yeah.
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When 1.5 comes out, partially automated shops will be possible.
Here's how:
1) Shop owner sets up a "books" chest with a hopper on top (maybe even supplies books).
2) Shop owner also has many signs for item pricing
3) Players write a list of stuff they want in a book, and drop it into the shops ordering system (the hopper on top of a locked chest.
4) When shop owner is online, he/she gets the books out and fullfills the requests by giving each customer a chest filled with the items they wanted as well as their book. The chest for the customer would have a sign with their name on it or something, but the chest would be password locked.
5) When the customer pays the requested amount to the shop owner, then the shop owner PMs the customer the password to their chest.
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When 1.5 comes out, partially automated shops will be possible.
Here's how:
1) Shop owner sets up a "books" chest with a hopper on top (maybe even supplies books).
2) Shop owner also has many signs for item pricing
3) Players write a list of stuff they want in a book, and drop it into the shops ordering system (the hopper on top of a locked chest.
4) When shop owner is online, he/she gets the books out and fullfills the requests by giving each customer a chest filled with the items they wanted as well as their book. The chest for the customer would have a sign with their name on it or something, but the chest would be password locked.
5) When the customer pays the requested amount to the shop owner, then the shop owner PMs the customer the password to their chest.
We still do not know how lwc is going to handle hoppers.
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When 1.5 comes out, partially automated shops will be possible.
Here's how:
1) Shop owner sets up a "books" chest with a hopper on top (maybe even supplies books).
2) Shop owner also has many signs for item pricing
3) Players write a list of stuff they want in a book, and drop it into the shops ordering system (the hopper on top of a locked chest.
4) When shop owner is online, he/she gets the books out and fullfills the requests by giving each customer a chest filled with the items they wanted as well as their book. The chest for the customer would have a sign with their name on it or something, but the chest would be password locked.
5) When the customer pays the requested amount to the shop owner, then the shop owner PMs the customer the password to their chest.
We still do not know how lwc is going to handle hoppers.
If the hopper is on a locked chest then the items will soon be discarded from the hopper into the chest below. I doubt a shop owner will ever get a full chest of books/player item requests, and if their shop is THAT popular then surely the owner will be smart enough to use a double chest, or have like 10 chests with multiple hoppers to ensure there won't be a lack of space for books of requests to go.
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When 1.5 comes out, partially automated shops will be possible.
Here's how:
1) Shop owner sets up a "books" chest with a hopper on top (maybe even supplies books).
2) Shop owner also has many signs for item pricing
3) Players write a list of stuff they want in a book, and drop it into the shops ordering system (the hopper on top of a locked chest.
4) When shop owner is online, he/she gets the books out and fullfills the requests by giving each customer a chest filled with the items they wanted as well as their book. The chest for the customer would have a sign with their name on it or something, but the chest would be password locked.
5) When the customer pays the requested amount to the shop owner, then the shop owner PMs the customer the password to their chest.
We still do not know how lwc is going to handle hoppers.
If the hopper is on a locked chest then the items will soon be discarded from the hopper into the chest below. I doubt a shop owner will ever get a full chest of books/player item requests, and if their shop is THAT popular then surely the owner will be smart enough to use a double chest, or have like 10 chests with multiple hoppers to ensure there won't be a lack of space for books of requests to go.
We still don't know IF hoppers will deposit items into a locked chest though.
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Don't game mechanics such as that override the plugins?
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Don't game mechanics such as that override the plugins?
They shouldn't.
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Don't game mechanics such as that override the plugins?
That all depends on how lwc implements it.
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Was gonna ask why that would be disabled then realized you could take items from a chest.